Beginner's Help from violinist dot com

Beginner's Help Please

basic staccato and vibrato help request

From Albert Justice

Beginner's Questions: (staccato, colle, and vibrato)

I'm relatively new to violin, and am trying to learn staccato better. I'm talking about just basic staccato rather than upbow or downbow. I injured my hand when I first began, so my instructor sort of topic hopped around and I am now trying to get those crisp notes in place in Suzuki II. I had to stop lessons after about 14 months because of family responsibilities, but fell so deeply in love with the instrument that I refuse to give it up, if only as an intensive hob by.

I'm working on Gavotte from Mignon in Suzuki II, and feel I need to stop at this point and get the staccato correct. I have been practicing upbow-S at violinmasterclass, colle, martele, and other techniques but I can't find a good technique simply describing 'basic' staccato anywhere.

Also, I am having a terrible time getting space between my 1st finger while doing vibrato anywhere beyond a-string. On A/E I can control the amplitude and speed nicely. However on g/d, even though the vibrations are even, the muffling is apparent because of the first finger touching the neck of the instrument. I have small hands, short arms and thick shoulders. I've tried every posture stunt imaginable.

I'm doing well with tip and frog colle, so that reference in the heading really doesn't apply. I hope that someone will give me a minute to help with the 'just plain' staccato and vibrato if possible.

Although I play piano and guitar very well, I absolutely, undeniably fell in love with violin. I have to get past this beginner's oversight (staccato) and perhaps physical limitaion (vibrato) if possible, and would be eternally grateful for help.

Thanks, al justice, war wv
zeagle79@bellatlantic.net

There have been no new messages posted since your last log-in.

From Sue Bechler
Posted on October 20, 2006 at 6:48 AM (MST)

Hi,Al, I've been a Suzuki teacher for 35 years, and also have experience teaching adult novices. I have some sense that you may be trying to do too much too soon. The Suzuki staccato bowing, up until maybe Book 4, is typically a relatively heavy, short stroke on the string. After that,we lighten it and start getting it off the string by bowing with a feeling of very shallow "smile shapes" somewhere between the bow's center and the balance point. Ditto vibrato. Dr.S. wrote that players should commence vibrato only when their independently-achieved pitch was excellent. They should try making a vibrato sound, and between player and teacher, decide on which finger has best sound and best-looking technique. Vibrate that whenever it comes up, and don't worry about the other fingers for a while. A good teacher should be able to describe what's happening to pitch when we vibrate, and demo the several different kinds. There's enough other vibrato posts that I probably shouldn't review all that here. Luck! Sue

[Flag?]

From Albert Justice
Posted on October 21, 2006 at 6:16 PM (MST)

Thanks Sue, your images added to what I've been able to compile from Violin Master Classes, the actual Suzuki material, and other sources. I finally got the basic stroke going ok, and using colle 'motions-not strokes' to try and do light martele and improve the crispness. Your image, "smile" helped me further, make it a little crisper I think.

Oddly, but not particularly unexpectedly, I had overlooked the most basic definition, not in Suzuki II somewhere, but on S1-1 "Twinkles"--sheesh, so that's where I actually began by releasing pressure, AND, focusing on more abrupt bow stopping, AND under the advice of another, using a little wrist motion (not really colle
motions) but something similar.

I'm doing a little left hand recuperating right now for about a week I think, so will be doing alot of open string bowing exercises to further refine these things.

My real problem with vibrato is reaching across to g/d with the space between f1 and the neck in place. However, with a sore left wrist, am going to simply wait until I feel better to continue. My v-control is very nice--it's a reach thing. I actually do 'fairly' well, with all 4 fingers in 3rd position. The other issue is that my thumb tends to slide when I'm trying to reach also, but I think this may also be related to this overuse thing I have going on. Final answer: I'm going to have to wait.

I love the Suzuki approach. Thanks for your help... al

[Flag?]

From Albert Justice
Posted on October 21, 2006 at 8:13 PM (MST)

Sue, I re-read your advice and found a lot of other things I hadn't noticed--just wanted to say thanks.

Most important: too much too soon. (probably)
Most relevant: more specifics than noticed about dvlpmt/staccato. how cool... On my practice wall they go. al

[Flag?]

From Allan Speers
Posted on October 21, 2006 at 11:38 PM (MST)

Sue, I must disagree with one point:

You wrote, "Dr.S. wrote that players should commence vibrato only when their independently-achieved pitch was excellent. "

The Suzuki method obviously has many strengths when it comes to both teaching and motivating students. However, IMO this particular idea is problematic. While I agree that intonation should be learned without vibrato, that doesn't mean the student should not ALSO learn vibrato at the same time.

As an adult beginner with a substantial knowledge of music and other instruments, I imposed this same rule upon myself at first. After getting the basic holds, shifts, and intonation down, I began to get my vibrato happening. I subsequently had a terrible time playing vibrato in all positions. I hadn't realized that the hold, esp the thumb position, has to change for various ranges & strings. My (ex) teacher did not pick up on this, either.

My point: By ALTERNATELY practicing with vibrato (intonation for one hour, vibrato for the next) you get the proper hold happening, and won't have anything to un-learn later.

This is just my experience, and I suppose a really good teacher could watch out for this, but it's still a concern.

ALSO: It 'aint much fun playing without vibrato. Where's the music? Doing the "alternate" method, above, allows you to enjoy playing more, without hurting your intonation development.

Just my opinion.....

[Flag?]

From Albert Justice
Posted on October 22, 2006 at 8:52 AM (MST)

Allan, I think you are both probably correct. Just realize, I was/am having a very remedial problem with vibrato. I think Sue was getting me around that.

And your point about the hold/thumb position is very true, but beyond my question, though not beyond some of the issues I am encoutnering--in fact to really practice I have to focus on either/or at this point, only sometimes getting a good clean vibration on a/e or more consistently across the board in 3rd position (somewhat more consistently).

Thank you both.

al

[Flag?]

From Sue Bechler
Posted on October 22, 2006 at 11:03 AM (MST)

Hi,Allan, As an adult beginner with a lot of other musical background, you are in a very different place than the typical Suzuki student re vibrato formation and use. I understood Al to be using the Suzuki materials/approach and feeling both pyhsical pain and mental frustration. With a Suzuki student who has decent pitch and left-hand position, I might include vibrato earlier than how Dr.S. described it. I have a spot,too; the Lully Gavotte on the e fermata // Teaching how to minimize left-hand tension right from the beginning of lessons is something I believe doesn't get enough attention. A lot of players squeeze the entire hand or make a clamp of the index base and thumb, thinking that's required to hold the violin and finger strongly. If young players/novices have an image of fingers contacting and releasing with energy, and that the thumb/index base act as relatively light stabilizers, then vibrato and shifting don't require undoing and re-learning. Sue

[Flag?]

From Albert Justice
Posted on October 22, 2006 at 11:56 AM (MST)

Not meaning to change the subject, but the left-hand tension thing is something I have to work on separately and with focus. I'm using both very easy beginning Suzuki material to do this, and after warmed up, Wohlfahrt.

After two days off (I couldn't get past 3), I actually just finished neck against the wall exercises to start my recovery. I also applied heat--before the warm ups, then only played a few minutes. The grip release exercises I put together are really nice. I took the finger dropping exercises from masterclasses, and applied them to thumb release--it works well for me.

Also, I started working with Sue's suggestions and practicing pressure-release on Staccato, using the same materials, but not really getting very far beyond visualizing and getting a few successive notes crisp. On the other hand, my 3rds and 6th double stops were even much slower coming on line (and are still getting there); so, I am generally pleased with the re-learning staccato in that it is advancing a little more quickly--as it should be?

Thanks again, al