Learning Speed posts from violinist dot com

Learning Speed

Learning Speed

From Albert Justice

If you set your metronome to some speed to learn a piece of music, what do you use? al

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From Sue Bechler
Posted on October 28, 2006 at 10:00 AM (MST)

I don't use a metronome much when learning a piece, actually. I like to learn all the bits at manageable tempos for tone and intonation, meaning I may first learn slow stuff too fast, and fast stuff too slow. I don't wait too long to start getting things into appropriate proportions, though I may do slow and medium at tempi given and still slow down fast parts at first. I prefer to use a metronome to set a tempo, play a section, and then re-check for consistency. One trick for getting fast stuff fast enough is to insert rests at tempo. Almost anybody can play 4 quite-fast 16ths, rest a beat, play the next 4, etc. Then go to groups of 8, or however the passage is built.

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From Albert Justice
Posted on October 28, 2006 at 12:00 PM (MST)

Thanks Sue.... I'm finding that alot of people approach this learning speed, generally, as you do--with variations.

Also, your earlier help with doing what does well first on vibrato is now helping others beyond me. Thank you.

It's been awhile, but in adding measures (that's what I call it), to a piano piece--I proceeded 'sort of' like you I think. I just wanted to see if I could improve learning efficency by exploring this--I want to get the most out of the generous bowing directions in Suzuki, along with sight reading and thought it worth discussion.

I had cut back to 40 to work on Lully in S2, and it was just too distracting... But your advice for increasing speed is 'great' and will be used--when I get that far along..... ;) I'm starting to use Wohlfhart nightly now, so as you can see I'm just now starting to really focus on very 'general' speed and patterns. I take these pieces of advice and put them on my 'practice' wall--or those like this that I find of special value.

I also went 'way' back with the staccato you helped me with (Suzuki 1: Twinkles), and brought it forward--along/w/your advice it seems to be working. I'm hearing the results in Wohlfahrt, and actually in some hymns I was learning the other night (the hymns: were actually sort of a combination of using staccato to sound them out and mix them with what I'd layed out on piano, and what you've shared here)....

My path, will have been 'exercise, exercise, exercise', because ultimately I want to play music that I love confidently; and, I find that though I'm running across alot of music that 'whew! inspires me: Brahms: Hungarian 4, Sarasate:Carmen, and so forth I'm afraid I won't be able to find a lot of help with the music I intend to play unless I've done so. My brain is a saturated sponge of all kinds of music.

a thousand thank-yous! al

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From Albert Justice
Posted on October 29, 2006 at 1:17 AM (MST)

Partly to keep the information together Sue, I just wanted to add a detail from VMC, appended to your notes.

Alternating the number of notes in a sequence so as not to ingraing the rests, as in alternating patterns elsewhere keeps it efficent.

Thanks again, al

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From sharelle taylor
Posted on October 29, 2006 at 2:56 PM (MST)

Sue, thankyou for that great suggestion about practising a measure at tempo. I realised that I CAN play 16ths at tempo.
What I found best was that it highlighted where I was screwing up. I realised that I stumbled when there was a string change in the measure, so I was able to isolate that for practise.

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From Stephen Brivati
Posted on October 29, 2006 at 3:31 PM (MST)

Greetings,
one of the most eswential strategies for improving playing is to use dotted rythms and the revrse for both triplet and semi quave rpassages. However, ther eis a major praciticng werror which often makes this work veyr inefficient. Taht is, one sets the metronme at for example, 66, and practices a triplet passage with two differnet rythms and then plays the passage normally -without adjusting the metrone upwards- The purpose of dotted rythm practice is to develop eveness and speed. But if one does this then one is practicng to play fatser and then playign slower than one has just pracitced. In order to progress naturally one has to do somethign like the follwinf :
dooted 66- normal 72
dotted 72- normal 84

and so on.
Cheers,
Buri

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From Albert Justice
Posted on October 29, 2006 at 10:39 PM (MST)

Thanks Buri, I appreciate your help. al

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From Susan D
Posted on October 30, 2006 at 5:23 PM (MST)

What has helped me more than anything else with fast detache passages is the Simon Fisher 'Basics' exercise of 'place finger/short bow/place next finger/short bow' etc in a kind of syncopation. I start this slowly enough to really think of it as two actions, always making the finger placement lead the bowing. Then speeding up becomes much easier, esp in the previously suggested '4 notes - wait - 4 notes - wait' pattern.

This has been the only way I've achieved clarity and speed. Before, it was always a mad, messy scramble, because the bow sometimes moved faster than the left fingers.

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From Albert Justice
Posted on October 31, 2006 at 11:44 PM (MST)

Susan, I owe you a thanks. Though it was an easy song--I had to learn it quickly. I didn't even realize that I had done, with the new and more confident staccato Sue helped me with, that I had done exactly what you have suggested here--it was only a hymn, but I also used staccato, place a finger, staccato, place a finger--and had it down post haste..... Then when I had it--everything of course went legato again ;)... But that's life. I'm learnin, I'm learnin.

I didn't even realize where I'd learned to do that! Sheesh. al

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From Susan D
Posted on November 2, 2006 at 1:01 AM (MST)

Great, you're welcome :)! When descending, and when about to change strings, you can even place the next finger even while still playing the current one - same as you need to do for legato. This is really good for improving intonation - you have time to get the finger into the right place before it is heard.

I hope you buy 'Basics', it's made such a difference for me.

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From Daniel Broniatowski
Posted on November 2, 2006 at 6:44 AM (MST)

Hi Al,
It doesn't really work that way...If you want to learn a fast piece, you have to learn how to play it very well...slowly....
I'll give you an example...Three years ago, I was learning Paganini's Moto Perpetuo, which is a piece made up of fast sixteenth notes from start to finish. The left hand is also fast, obviously.
So...my goal tempo was around quarter note = 150, if I remember correctly.
What I did first was, I learned (without metronome) in sections....a few lines at a time, with very little desire to learn too much too soon (you want to learn everything very well and slow and steady wins the race, in my opinion).
Within a section, I would play 4 notes-bow (even 2 sometimes), making sure that my fingers went down on the string diliberately and with accuracy. If I missed a note or two, I didn't stop..I went back and repeated the measure or four note figure until it was right (while making the necessary corrections).
After the intonation was set (this can be 1 day to a week, depending on your skill level), I practiced open strings just barely above the middle of the bow with as little as bow as possible (but with nice tone). I did this slowly as well.
Then....next (or day by day), (if I was ready), I would gradually increase the tempo with open strings and metronome...Maybe 10 increments per repetition.
Next, starting in the first practice session, I would add fingers and bow together, slowly..Then I'd add the metronome again, slowly but steadly, until reaching the goal tempo.

Practice well!
Daniel

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From Albert Justice
Posted on November 2, 2006 at 1:15 PM (MST)

Susan--I will get Basics.... And to tell you the truth, I've gotten a lot of education here too.... It's amazing--and, those things I can understand have applied--point in case.

al ...

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From Albert Justice
Posted on November 2, 2006 at 1:18 PM (MST)

Daniel--thanks... We were talking about learning period, but thanks for sharing that. You've helped me get even more confident slowing down and deconstructing challenging material.

Now that I'm past the I've gotta get through Suzuki 5 next month syndrome--and Oh my God, I've gotta play that, now(songs that keep popping on my fingerboard from other instruments), alot of these approaches are coming in place. I've started doing (in my amature beginners world) pretty closely to what you've decsribed on "Gavotte from Mignon", Lully's "Gavotte", and went back and applied it to "Witch's Dance" in Suzuki II--I like these pieces and want to do them well!.

Just knowing how other people break this stuff down is incredibly helpful. And, even if I'm still tending to generalize 'a little', when I work intently on each note in it's context (staccato in a slur, 8th v 16th,) you've all given me the techniques to get there.

I was really hammering on this on "Mignon" last night as above, and I can feel it making a difference. I discovered however, that I need to go back an get better at string crossings, and the mechanics/kinetics of doing so. I watched the videos over at masterclasses, and need to spend some time with that--the elbow's role and so forth.

Thanks a million. al

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From Susan D
Posted on November 4, 2006 at 8:29 PM (MST)

The string crossing thing can be made to sound complicated, but I think of it this way: at the moment of the crossing, your *arm* is at the lower string level, and the crossing is done by the wrist. So going from A to D string, your arm is already at D level (at least at D very near A level). Going from D to A, your arm remains at D level until you've crossed. Another helpful thing is to practice the three 'double stop' levels: GD, DA, AE, as this is a handy place for the arm to be for fast crossings and just before the moment of crossing.

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From Albert Justice
Posted on November 4, 2006 at 9:13 PM (MST)

I'm only now really focusing intently on the geometry of bowing Susan, and basically just trying to ensure that the movements come from the elbow. So, I like your approach to string crossing and will try and work it in as I go along.

I watched the legato lessons at VMC, and they taught me to anticipate the crossing, at least in legato; and, to begin the motion earlier than at the actual point of contact and etc.. And somewhere else I learned that the elbow raises a little (if I'm not confused) in preparation for crossing.

So, what I've started doing, and something I wish I'd discovered earlier, is to do a lot of open bowing for string crossings, wrist motion, detache (level, stick angle), and etc. I anticipate I'll be doing this for a long while way beyond when I can 'feel' my elbow and arm doing these motions fluidly and hopefully instinctively a little later.

I like the double-stops aspect of what you pointed out.... I think that will help alot in terms of ingraining those little subtle angles when things are moving quickly, or simply to play more efficiently.

Thanks, al