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Adjusting to reality: the unorthodox or jumping through hoops

With age, injuries, and trauma comes limitations, either perceived or real. For a general player, how would you get around them?

From Albert Justice

I have a small, arthritis inflamed, injury-recovered left hand I'm trying to convince can learn vibrato. In doing so, the space between the 1st finger and the neck simply does not want to cooperate.

I know that proceeding slowly is the first part of getting around this, but it may turn out because of the shortness of my fingers I may never be able to get that space consistently on g/d.

How far and how, if you know, would one deal with this? Somebody (actually here), got me started with some advice about getting it going on a/e, and lo-and-behold it's working very very nicely if not yesterday, but I just have this feeling the g/d issue may be permanent.

My f3 took a serious serious injury when I first started (along with f2 and f4 though not as bad), and I'm trying to prepare myself that it may never be 100 percent. About 4 months after the incident, I sat down to play piano, then guitar, and realized the extent of the situation.

So another part of the question involves trills and more broadly how far to flex in getting around something. I'm doing a little Bach piece (fairly easy), and discovered that by shifting up to 2nd (I think--I'm sure it's not 3rd) that I can perform the trill a hundred times better-literally. Would one force themselves to strengthen the finger, or accept that jumping through some hoops may be in order.

Finally, I'm not willing to throw all my work away, and start flexing when inappropriate, so I'm trying to get at, how high are your hoops...

al

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From Stephen Brivati
Posted on October 29, 2006 at 7:17 PM (MST)

Greetings,
not alway, but as a rule of thumb, what sounds best is often the best or most convenient way of doing things. With the help of a teahcer you shoudl be able to dveelop atechnique that fits your needs. textbooks like Basics are good up to point, avery high point indeed, but they are somewhat snap shotty in some instances.
Cheers,
Buri

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From Albert Justice
Posted on October 29, 2006 at 9:51 PM (MST)

Thanks Buri. I had a very good private instructor for the first year plus, but now am 'grounding' all the cram work we had to do because I was injured.

I'm just trying to get a general feel, for what: "what sounds good" means in terms of dealing with circumstances. Thanks again... al

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From Stephen Brivati
Posted on October 29, 2006 at 10:09 PM (MST)

Greetings,
Albert, I wasn`t exactly clear what you meant here. I took it to mean that you want a space between the side of the neck and the index finger?
If so, at your stage I would not actually be teaching that at all. One has to learn the kinesthetic aspect of the neck and fiddle really well. Galamian used to teach what he called the `double contact pronciple` in which the neck is touched in two places but never three. Thus up until around fourth psoition the index finger is a contatc point . After that it has ot release because the palm of the hand takes over and triple contact paralyses one. At a later stage one learns ot release the finger from the neck, especially in expressive passages.
Is that what you meant?
Cheers,
Buri

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From Albert Justice
Posted on October 29, 2006 at 11:46 PM (MST)

Yes--that was part of it Buri. I'm familiar with the contact point stuff--thanks for making that clear--I feel like I've just been to a lesson--I'm throwing it in my notes--there was good added information there.

But, it is also a general question about what one has to do when 'the method' fails due to circumstances (injuries, arthritis, etc), --and how do we reliably define flexibitlity in finding workarounds for injuries and so forth, minimizing the effect on technique, and ultimately musicality I suppose.

Notice in the original post the point about shifting to 2nd to do the trill. Well, I don't want to arbitrarily start taking these measures, when my 3rd finger is begging for strengthening, after the injury.

Finally, I intend to play this instrument even if I find real limitations because of just several factors. I'm in love with a violin! sheesh. Seriously though, I played on a piano, many years before I played a piano. I don't have the time, nor the patience to repeat that pattern. That little shift on the trill scared me--I know my propensity to cheat!. I had a similar though not as unfocused experience getting some decent guitar under my belt.

Thank your for your generous answer and time Buri.. Play on! al

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From Stephen Brivati
Posted on October 29, 2006 at 11:16 PM (MST)

Greetings,
well, a very effective tool for strenghtening the fingers is mordent work followed by short trill work as one gets better. It is not advisable, in my opinion, to practice sustained trills as in the sevcik trill studies. This kind of practice is recommended in Applebaum`s `The art and Science of Violin Playing` and also by Ricci. At an advanced level Kreutzer etudes clealry advocate this approahc but I think youare not there yet.
I think a very helpful; and inexpensive book for you might be the one I just mentioned in another post Kievman- Practicing the Violin Mentally/Physically.
Itr is a serious of mild non strenuous exercises thta get right to the herat of the basic elements of playing with veyr useful; and clear commentary.
Cheers,
Buri

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From Albert Justice
Posted on October 29, 2006 at 11:25 PM (MST)

Thanks Buri... I found the Kievman.. I think for the sake of my f3, I'm going to do the short trills and mordents, even if I do continue shifting for the time being--there is a huge difference in tonal quality.

Further, I think I'm going to simply add them to my daily practice chart as if they were part of my program. Now that I'm thinking about it, I have a couple more little exercises (I think from Sevcik)I can use/adapt for 3rd as well I'm going to throw in there.

It was telling, that I hadn't realized what real damage had been done until I sat down at a piano about 3 months after the fact--it was like a total loss of coordination. So, I've got that under control now by going back to patterns and scale studies, and improve a little every week.

I don't play piano every day, or even month since starting violin--I wouldn't even if not playing violin, but knew when I saw f3 recuperating steadily on piano that eventually everything will be ok.

I also, because of trauma, do Wohlfahrt op45 1st position (just the first series), against the wall with scroll wrapped and practice a grip/thumb release exercise I adapted from a finger dropping exercise. The point in this rambling, is that I'll be a natural for the Kievman material, because I've really had to dig in mentally at every point.

Finally, thank you again for your help. The people in this group have been awesome. I pray that this kindness will be repaid.

Play on!
al

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From Sue Bechler
Posted on October 31, 2006 at 7:42 AM (MST)

Hi,Al,It's me again. There is such an unfortunate propensity among string players to think that there is a "right" way. For example, fingerings are just one person's opinion of how to get the notes. We admire the playing or revere the reputation, so we try to emulate by copying details. Better we should listen to the sound and try to understand all its layers. If your trill works best on particular fingerings, predicated by injury or not, why not use your strong point? There will come spots where the fingering needed to get to your best trill is clunky, in which case, you make a choice. Clunky fingering/2nd-best trill sound ??? I make choices this way about vibrato. Mine is quite good, and it's the one thing that came completely naturally. One day in 7th grade, I couldn't; the next day I could. With my various teachers, even my demanding college prof, it was, "Show me how you do vibrato. Fine." But I prefer the sound I get with 2nd or 3rd finger especially when I want a wider, slower vibrato, so I finger for that when I can. As to the vibrato part of your question, have you considered "arm" vibrato? That's the one that starts mostly at the elbow and where the wrist (though wrist vibrato is more about palm of the hand...aaagh!!!)isn't generating the "quaver" (which is NOT a note-value in this instance.) Off to the barn to do chores- a good choice considering how this is running downhill quickly. Sue

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From al ku
Posted on October 31, 2006 at 8:21 AM (MST)

al, you sound like a genuine violin fanatic who sets out against all odds to acquire some basic skills and yet you have so far decided to manage it all on your own.

i have seen self taught golfers who went very far but only very few and always they occasionally get feedback from others.

it is very difficult to describe things and show things in posts...way too much ambiguity and confusion.

one crazy suggestion is to consider showing your play on youtube. i am sure buri and sue would love to comment on it:)

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From Albert Justice
Posted on October 31, 2006 at 6:37 PM (MST)

Al (jeez I'm talking to myself now),

I took lessons from 1st chair of WV symphony for over a year; and, yes I am a violin fanatic as you say. I usually say just in love with violin--it's and amazing amazing instrument.

It is tough to communicate through posts, nonetheless, I've had a great deal of help from Sue, Buri, and others to keep me grounded and moving forward until I can get back in lessons.

I like the idea of itube, but I am such a pretty person, I'm afraid the entire net would melt down were I to place my lovely likeness upon it's delicately balanaced million of miles of cable and optics, especially with Lucille-my beloved instrument. I simply couldn't be responsible for that .. Especially in that I know Fee Fee, my well bred but poorly behaved hound dog would be trying to upstage me at ever point--that would really make me angry. (She sings better than I play at this point.)

Seriously though, one day that will be common. I play other instruments as well, and will, reach some level along the way. More importantly, I only use 56k and it would be pretty much impossible. Good idea though.

al (checks the back of the computer to see if it would melt, thinking 'just a couple more years on vibrato' and Hillary Haun will give me a holler) justice

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From al ku
Posted on October 31, 2006 at 6:10 PM (MST)

al, i admire your tenacity (wish i am talking to myself).

it may take longer for you to reach the top of the mountain, but i think your trip will be more interesting than most.

have fun!

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From Albert Justice
Posted on October 31, 2006 at 6:41 PM (MST)

Thanks al... please don't say mountain in the same sentence as getting there--I'll be practicing all night.

Sue, that got me there. I had heard about people choosing their favorite approaches to vibrato, so you reinforced that as well--thanks. I just had to hear this from someone that really knows. And my understanding of flexibitly is increased as well.

I only practiced arm once, and got a few clean vibrations going. Given that I really do see myself doing a lot of slow romantic music, it probably makes good sense getting that online fairly soon. I'm working seriously on relaxed posture, no tension, and again--the left thumb release, so will try and review the material on arm ASAP.

And in that I'm making myself use accepted shifting points when doing scales etc., I think I get the picture now... Thank you so much.

And Al, it's not tenacity--it's half addled. God put this thing in front of my feet, and said, Play on!.

al

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From Paul Cook
Posted on October 31, 2006 at 6:48 PM (MST)

Hi,

Regarding the trills, it sounds like a dilemma, but it's not really. If you get a better trill RIGHT NOW shifting up to put the trill under the stronger fingers, then that's what you do, right now.

Meanwhile, you continue to strengthen all the fingers, and run trill exercises, and all that good mom, flag and apple pie stuff. There will come a piece that needs a trill, and really doesn't allow for the accomodating shift. There might come a time when you will want to play the Bach differently, with no shift or a different shift. When that comes around, you are ready for it.

I do hope your hand injuries ultimately heal completely. About 35 years ago, I got badly burned on over half my body, and came away with restrictive scars that limit my mobility slightly in my arms and my left hand fingers. So, I know about accomodations. But it is amazing what you can adjust to when you are compulsively driven. When I play a scale in tenths, my hand looks like no other violinist, but the notes are (occasionally) in tune, therefore, it can be done.

Keep at it, and use all the resources you can find.

If you can produce a video file, perhaps you could load it onto a cdrom or dvdrom, and carry it down to a library or a friend's house to upload to youtube or whatever.

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From Albert Justice
Posted on October 31, 2006 at 8:45 PM (MST)

Thanks Paul--good advice. I've started spending 'a lot' of time against the wall doing Wohlfhart and scales, and doing deep focus on relaxed hands, posture,note pressing, and thumb releasing.

I'm sure it'll end up somewhere between what everyone has suggested. I actually love working on basics, exercising, and so forth--so much that it can take a lot of time. I just spent my first hour doing exactly that. My next one will be the same--then I get to play some music.

I've been in massage therapy, hot-wax treatments, and had some of the best practial as well as holistic support for this thing imaginable. I'm glad you've taken command of your circumstances as well. It sounds like you have been through 'it'.

It's strange, but I was more terrifed of not being able to play violin than piano, and I have nearly 40 years twinkling the ivories. I picked up my guitar (about 3 months in) after I sat down to jam on piano, and I was in complete shock--nothing--nada. Piano was the same. It was like an exercise someone was describing elsewhere to build speed, and actually like shifting: lift, shift and drop for the longest time.

My instructor was hmmm--she's extremely competent--do I really want any part of this. So after I faked like I wasn't in pain enough, we topic-hopped so that when I got better I'd have lots of stuff to work on. Boy, do I!

I'm sure she'd be proud I finally got my basic bowing correct in terms of level-hair, angled bow, pretty good ball and egg motions, and so forth. And I am really proud of what Sue got me through going 'all the way' back to Twinkles for staccato.

And tonight, I got my first clean vibrations on d-string with everything correct (it's a long story). Didn't sound too good, but now I know I can work through it. I wanted to run down and holler at Sue, but refrained. I've bugged her enough(and Fee Fee has become jealous--another long story). Now I know what the inside of my left elbow looks like...

Thanks for the feedback man.. I'll let you know when Hillary calls ;). Play on! al

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From Stephen Brivati
Posted on October 31, 2006 at 9:28 PM (MST)

Greetings,
>I actually love working on basics, exercising, and so forth--so much that it can take a lot of time. I just spent my first hour doing exactly that. My next one will be the same--then I get to play some music.

Albert, it sound slike you might ave a bit of an imbalance here. Of course, the expression `Technique is only a means to an end` is a soverworked as my coffee machine but itis true and is well complimented by the rather odd idea that the end is also sometimes a means to the technique. What I mean by this is you might actually achive your end through music rather than overdoing technique as an abstarct exercise. The book I recommeded by Kievmann ha sa useful piec eof advice. he says that however long you practice be it an hour or two minutes, half of that time shoudl be spent on music.
Auer state ssoemthign along the same line swhen he says that all techncila time shoudl end with a piec eof singing nature to remind ourselves taht the violin is a singing instrument.
I think modern ideas on motivation and pracitce p@sychology (really just explciating whast great teacher sand player shave always known...) quite commonly state that itit may be better to get in the right frame of miond for practice , be it techncial or musicla work you wish to do, by assessing your current emotional state and matchign it with either a similar kind of improvisation (the cellist William Pleeth used ot practic elike this) or a piec ein similar vein.
By activating the emotional , spiritual whole person ones technicla work is of the highest order. Technical work in the abstarct can suck out the soul of any musician. Ratehr like my spelling I suppose...
Cheers,
Buri

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From Albert Justice
Posted on October 31, 2006 at 10:02 PM (MST)

Thanks Buri--point taken. Please understand, that I started pulling music in from piano on day one, and by first lesson knew upward of 20 or 30 songs, some beginning in e-flat--and, could play them, even if terribly in terms of bow control, habits and so forth. Ebb Tide, Moon River, Love is a Many Splendored Thing, Jesu Joy of Man's Desire--yada, yada, yada.

That said, I could literally play this thing for not hours but days, if I had that luxury. And by play, I mean play. It was the same with piano when I was a child--and I did have that luxury.

I have a really good understanding and hold on the 'zen' of life, and all that it implies--from Jung to mythos, I am currently getting control of my passion--it's imperative if I'm to get through Suzuki 10 at some point--or wherever I end up.

But what you have said is awesomely true. I've been there a thousand times on piano--and pacified myself instinctively using exactly those ideas. Sometimes it would be rock, sometimes Bach. And so forth and so on. And sometimes, it was pure exercise--or wherever I was led.

I'm impressed with the idea of ending with a singing, musical song and intend on applying that--especially as I drill myself for awhile. To be honest though, most of the time, it's all pure joy; and, in some ways you may be preaching to the choir! ;)... You're great man! Thanks. al

One of the greatest frustrations of my teacher, was that my passion rather than my head was leading me in my endeavors. I am certain of this. Soooo, when I get a little further along, and do some deal-making with my passion, I'll start flexing some in terms of the more personal layers of what all this means.